Dubli Scam Evidence Goes Un-Contested
Dan Brian 21/02/10
I was approached by a really nice guy asking me for marketing advice to help him build his new Dubli business and also if I would consider joining as a distributor associate in the Dubli program in November 2009.
After an enjoyable first couple of meetings I realised the advice I was given to go do due diligence on the business was not genuine. I submitted the list of questions (extract below) after my initial research and heard nothing back.Three months later I've still heard nothing. I've called and left emails and feel like I need to share my experience in the hope that the Scam and Red Flag (questions in bold) signs and evidence can be disproved or others will be warned to steer clear.
I openly invite any Dubli member or associated entity/persion to come to this blog and answer these questions because your leadership could not. I undertake to publish any response that is written without profanity or poor taste.
Or you can email me at dan.briann@gmail.comDan Brian
Email Extract - Dubli Scam and Red Flag Questions Start in Red Text if you want to scroll straight to it.
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From: Dan <danxxx@x.com.au> |
Thanks mate, sounds great, look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Dan
From: John D [mailto:john.d@y.com.au] Sent: Monday, 30 November 2009 1:02 PM To: Dan Subject: RE: Meet nxt wed HI Dan, We have been working through your questions. Have answers for some. Working on the others. Regards John -----Original Message----- From: Dan [mailto: dan.briann@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 27 November 2009 4:02 PM To: 'Dan; john.d@com.au Subject: RE: Meet nxt wed Hi John,
Thanks again for a great chat Wed morning. Dubli is a very innovative and potentially exciting business model. Can you please ask your mate Tom or similar to give me a buzz re these questions we discussed or point me to the best person to clear them up?
Provided you can clear up these questions and/or show me how I’m getting this stuff wrong I’d like to get started at the top level asap. Here’s the starting point where I found an unfavourable blog post online http://thespinfactor.com/thetruth/2008/09/25/dubli-another-complex-scam/ I then watched the HYPERLINK "http://www.duba2z.com"www.duba2z.com you referred me too and took the speaker’s advice on doing some due diligence.
Particularly Concerning are the Site Terms and Conditions and these two responses to your unfavourable press - I've quickly linked, highlighted, and typed notes into the "red flags" and questions I (and anyone else for that matter) would want answered: http://www.duba2z.com/pdfs/Attorney-on-DubLi-Gaming-Laws.pdf http://www.duba2z.com/pdfs/Response-to-Negative-Press.pdf Questions: The Letter of Opinion (http://www.duba2z.com/pdfs/Attorney-on-DubLi-Gaming-Laws.pdf ) provided by the un-named attorney (why wouldn't you disclosure your attorney's name? may make people think it's a fake letter) addresses the possible allegation that Dubli would be regulated as a gaming organisation or accused of having games that would be defined as gambling by a number of jurisdictions in the US and around the world. The attorney explains the elements of the legal definition of gambling being absent from Dubli for the US
Tom's letter responding to "negative press" says a US attorney has cleared up the "is this gambling?" question. That may be the case in the US although I suspect it's not the case in Australia. Here's the rules I've been able to dig up with a few google searches. Do you have similar Attorney General rulings from each state in Australia and New Zealand? Have you had the Dubli marketing material and collateral checked by the relevant Fair Trading authorities in each state?
a. -http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/online_gambling/interactive_gambling_industry_code/frequently_asked_questions#faq1 Where and Who holds Dubli's licence for Australia? If none, what are you doing about getting one? Link to definition of “gambling service” http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/iga2001193/s4.html#prohibited_internet_gambling_service There is a CLEAR AND LIKELY risk that if a Bidder complains about losing money on a product that ultimately NEVER sold either via No Unique Bid, or No Willing Buyers under Express Auction etc. then it’s likely the Aust Communications Media Authority would direct Dubli to comply with the relevant industry code = http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/iga2001193/s32.html
I’m thinking of two potentially similar cases at the opposite ends of the spectrum that BOTH came under scrutiny for potential gambling infringements: Google & Betfair (see links below 2003 & 2005/2006) http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Google-others-breach-e-gambling-law-/0,130061733,139206961,00.htm?omnRef=http://www.google.com.au/search?q=gaming%20laws%20australia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a http://www.smartgambler.com.au/articles/article_014.html
Let's say Dubli have figured out this "are we a gambling or gaming entity or not" question by paying a bunch of expensive law firms to write them notes saying "no, we are not, why - because we say so". The moment you listen to any one of these distributors, affiliates, or associates pitch this business opportunity you will see them breaking all sorts of fair trading representation rules.
Things like;
- Dubli is the next Ebay - with Dubli you can have a share in the next Ebay
- Dubli is the next Amazon - with Dubli you will have a share in the Amazon
- Dubli is going to be bigger than both of the above - is a statement I've heard over 50 times on the internet and several times in person from different representatives. This statement is so insane it's just embarrassing for the brand - and worse it makes you LOOK like a scam.
The business models of these two internet companies could not be further from the Dubli model.The negative press response letters stipulate Dubli's deliberate intention NOT to sell large ranges of product but to focus on the number above. Why, why say one thing with your website and associate sales force then another thing secretly in the boardroom or among to elites?
In relation to product and price disclosure - Why is there no oversight on who is bidding on what, when, or who won at what price after the sale is completed?
Why not appoint an independent umpire or referee to adjudicate any bidding dispute?
Why can the bidders not see how many $0.80 clicks Dubli earned throughout any given auction?
Do you understand why we see no reasonable explanation as to why you would hide this information?
Do you see how you could take endless $0.80 and not decrease the price as you say you will provided people are bidding rapidly down to zero you could take a huge number of "extra" bids and no one would ever know accept Dubli in Cyprus (tax haven and court dodge) head office - and of course you won't subject yourself to the same rules of transparency us companies in normal jurisdictions have will you?
How do we know the company doesn't have "dutch auction" bidders rigging certain Auctions - I suspect this is why Ebay lets you view the bidders user ID's and bid history as each auction progresses - why not do the same?
Why would you continue to allow people to promote the business this way? Why won't you display a warning to people clearly stating that there are elements of chance involved and no one is guaranteed of anything in certain auctions - not even the ability to see the statistics of who bid on what after the auction has closed?
The Letter of Opinion goes on to recommend: a) (Recommends) Dubli retains either a national Auctioneer Licensing Authority or a licensed auctioneer for each state – has this happened? b) QUOTE – p8 of 8 http://www.duba2z.com/pdfs/Attorney-on-DubLi-Gaming-Laws.pdf (Further the letter of opinion recommends) The best strategy would be to limit possible exposure to jurisdiction claims by 1. working through third parties and contractors as much as practicable; 2. ensuring that the terms and conditions specify
d) Continuing on from the above quote, the company history suggests that the first head office location (ie. Jurisdiction for the purpose of resolving disputes such as commissions or bonuses etc) was Denmark, then Germany and UK (which the Attorney recommended stay the same), however it appears within the last 2yrs that was changed again to Cyprus which is a know Tax Haven according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_haven ). Given that Dubli could have selected a another tax haven such as Luxembourg which does have some extradition and reciprocal legal language.
Another online sceptic raised the fact that Cyprus has no extradition treaty agreement with Australia so neither a civil case or criminal case could be pursued against Dubli Head Office or it's founder in the event he or the senior management misappropriated funds or , investors, associates, or similar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_Australia#Countries_with_which_Australia_has_concluded_extradition_agreements
Why choose Cyprus? Let's concede perhaps you are crazy paranoid about tax and lawsuits then why not set up an independent review body in the trading market countries for these disputes? Why not agree in advance to be bound by that umpires decision - you could even cap any potential penalty pay out figures for yourself? At least you could say you were willing to be held accountable in the markets you trade to some degree.
Yes, we can see you have some delivery companies and trading entities in the US and similar trading countries but all of your head office, company assets, main servers, and most importantly OWNERSHIP reside in Cyprus, true or not?
e) The important question is, did Dubli HQ decide they needed to flee from Denmark, Germany, and UK to Cyprus to be in a jurisdiction where they could “offload” and "avoid" legal responsibility to the contractors and customers and regulations of the markets they were trading in. Dubli would be insulated not only from taxes and government gambling law lawsuits but also from contractor or Associate law suits as a result of a particular foreign jurisdiction pursuing the local contractor?
eg. I sign up here in Australia, selll $10,000 in my first month and decide that you paid me a short commission cheque. If I disagree with your handling of it I have to fly to Cyprus hire my lawyers and pay for your lawyers before you will even come to the Cyrus court to mediate the dispute? This leads me to concerns surrounding the Dubli Terms & Conditions Link http://us.dubli.com/info/13-Terms-Conditions Given there is no chance at appealing any Dubli decision how can I be assured my business will not be taken from me without good cause, fair reimbursement value, and due process if I object or disagree with the action taken by Dubli?
Can I have any civil dispute I have with Dubli heard by an Australian court? Not according to these Terms and Conditions: Section 3 (1) & (2) - Participants may be excluded from the site at any time at the discretion of DubLiDubLi is entitled to change (in particular to reduce or suspend) its services at any time and without prior notice Section 11 § 11 Legal Succession DubLi is entitled to fully or partially transfer its rights and duties resulting from contracts with participants to a legal successor. Does this mean Dubli can dissolve it’s operations and bank accounts or sell part of all of our accumulated business networks at any time? Section 12 Liability Exclusion/Limitation (1) DubLi shall not assume any liability for actions of a participant and the resulting claims from another participant or third party, to the extent that the participant is responsible for this. Legal claims that could arise against DubLi in this respect, are assumed by the responsible participant. The accountable participant shall also assume the costs of a legal defense with regard to possible emerging solicitor, court, expert or other costs in connection with an extra-judicial or judicial legal dispute. This disclaimer does not apply when the participant is not responsible for damages that have arisen. This seems to directly suggest that should the Australia Govt or anyone else with a legal claim against Dubli should pursue the local associates and/or promoters of the Dubli site for gambling law breaches that Dubli would not assist in anyway and we would have no right to ask them for help?
§ 14 Written Form, Applicable law and Legal Jurisdiction Declarations undertaken in the contractual relationship with DubLi must be in written form and sent to the address indicated in the imprint or sent to us by e-mail. With contractual relationships with companies, the parties agree to the applicability of the law of the Republic of Cyprus, to the exclusion of the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. To the extent that merchants are involved in the contractual relationship with DubLi, the legal jurisdiction is agreed to be Limassol. Dubli will not accept any other venue outside of Cyprus to negotiate or arbitrate a dispute? And no doubt as above an Associate would have to pay his or her own expenses if they had a dispute over something like commission rates, payment dates, or similar? THAT”S IT. Just a professional advice piece also, A lot of the marketing material claims this is similar to ebay and yet Tom Ashlock claims in his letter that he aims to never sell a lot of product and the auctions are just a “means to an end” (a key characteristic of Ebay and difference to Dubli) so I think the communications coming from head office should be a little less disingenuous and more disciplined. http://www.duba2z.com/pdfs/Response-to-Negative-Press.pdf
I'd would rather be told the products are just a fun, gambling based incentive to convince you to look at the credit/MLM network. As opposed to being bait and switched on a pitch of "this is going to be like Ebay" then it turns out closer to Avon. If you don't cut this deceptive messaging out and discipline your troops the bad press will spread like wildfire on the web and absolutely kill any viral capacity you otherwise would've had.
I’m sure some of these matters can be cleared up with a quick explanation and I look forward to meeting up again and getting started John. Please get your contact to phone me if email if too difficult to reply too – apologies for the format and typos.
Cheers, Dan
dan.briann@gmail.com




Will your office be like Google's or is your great idea sending you 


